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Transcript of the President's interview to Mr. V. S. Sambandan, Special Correspondent, The Hindu

Transcribed by: Mohamed H Shareef (Mundhu) - Sunday, 12th September 2004

Venue: Shaheed Ali Hall, The President’s Office

Time: 1300 hrs, 2^nd September

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, congratulations on your [presidential election] victory and congratulations also on your effort to [implement] reform. Mr. President, you started off by promising reforms, and you also started off by making separation of powers. What is your timeframe for reforms?

President:

Well, as you know I had explained my reform proposals to the general public on the 9^th of June this year. I said that I propose to change the Constitution in certain ways, in order to make a greater separation of powers, including the separation of post of President from a new post created for Prime Ministership. And also, strengthening the role of the parliament, limiting the terms of Presidency -- now the number of terms is unlimited. I’m in my sixth term, but I want to set a limit of two terms. I also proposed creating a Supreme Court. I also said that I wished to introduce a multiparty system which is going to be quite new to this country. These are the major reforms that I am thinking of. In fact, I have already compiled a number of Articles that will be presented – draft Articles – that will be presented to the People’s Special Majlis when it meets so that they can consider these Articles for incorporation into our present Constitution. You know, our present Constitution came into force in January 1998. I hope that as soon as the Special Majlis begins sitting, they will be discussing these proposals and taking a decision on them, because, according to our Constitution, the Constitution can be amended only by the People’s Special Majlis. Elections to the Majlis have been held and the Majlis has now been convened. You know that the first sitting took place in July.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. What you are seeking to do is something like what you had already done in the economic front, to completely transform the Maldives. You think the nature of the state of the Maldives permits you to do that?. What are the difficulties you think will be posed to your reform package? For instance, multiparty democracy itself is something new- from sultanate to republic to sultanate again, and then to republic. So, the state has got a history of a strong leader.

President:

Yes. I know. But I think the country is now ready for a transition from the traditional systems that we have known to new modern systems. I think there are now more people in the country who are educated. There are thousands of graduates, and hundreds holding masters’ degrees and several with PhDs. So, the country is ready now for a change. And, as you have mentioned, we have made substantial progress in the economic field. We have become a country which has now, I think, the best per capita income in the whole region. And our industries of tourism and fisheries have developed very well over the past 25 years. So, I think we have reached a stage whereby political reform is needed and will be received well by the general public. Of course, that does not mean there won’t be any resistance to certain reforms. There could be. For one thing, as you have mentioned, a multiparty system is quite new in this country. So, I think a lot of people still don’t believe that a multiparty system can work here. For that reason, I have prepared certain background papers on how these systems work in other countries. I have already compiled those papers. I had some translated and distributed among the Special Majlis Members. And I am also inviting a team from the American NDI to help us to create the framework whereby a multiparty system can become viable.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, if you take the more recent developments from September to August for instance, there has been two things for which Maldives has come under international opinion. Amnesty International has been quite critical of the situation in Maldives – the prisons in Maldives – then we have the unfortunate September incident, and then the August thing. How do you see these as a recent challenge to you?

President:

For one thing I must tell you that although Amnesty International have been critical of us, they have not come here at all. They have not seen the situation for themselves. To my knowledge, no one from that organisation has visited this country and seen things firsthand. All their reports have been based on hearsay -- from a few vocal dissidents; Maldivians based abroad. Five people not more. I can name them. So, it is a very sad thing that an international organisation of the stature of Amnesty International should rely on hearsay. We have told them to come. We have told them to discuss these things with us, to visit our prisons.

Mr. Sambandan:

Is the invitation open even now?

President:

Yes. It’s open even now. They can come, visit our prisons, talk to prisoners and see how they are being treated. And I’m sure that they will find that conditions here are far better than in many other countries.

Mr. Sambandan:

Also the arrest of some Special Majlis members -- that has also drawn some criticism. And you had sent your personal envoys to other countries.

President:

Yes, I know. That was a very unfortunate incident, and I regret very much that there are two members of Parliament and some members of the Special Majlis in detention at the present moment. But, you know what happened on the 12^th and the 13^th of August was something quite unexpected and unlawful, and the mob that had gathered during those two days at Jumhooree Maidhaan become violent. They stabbed policemen. They set a Government building on fire. And they actually tried to forcefully enter the Police Headquarters, maybe, with the purpose of releasing certain people who were detained there or something of the sort, or even destroying the building. So, the situation was a very tragic and unlawful situation, whereby the Government had to take action in order to safeguard public property and to safeguard lives. Unfortunately, these members were there. The people had remained there for up to sixteen, seventeen hours, although repeatedly we had been warning them to go home, or if they had any complaints or demands, to express them in the proper way. I mean, they can submit their complaints to me personally or to any other Government authority. They can do it according to the procedure that is laid down for the particular purpose, but they remained there. They wanted to force the Government to do certain things which no Government can do. In the end, we had to take action. We had to disperse the crowd, and I must tell you that even though there were a few hundred people gathered armed with stones and sticks and so forth, only twelve people suffered any injuries. Eight civilians, who suffered minor injuries, and, four policemen, of whom three suffered serious injuries -- two policemen were stabbed and one policeman had a broken arm. But, none of the civilians suffered any serious injuries, which shows you how we treated the matter. I mean if you had seen video films of this event, which we have – or pictures, you will see how very calmly our security forces attended to that situation.

Mr. Sambandan:

Yes, so I have been told.

President:

You know, in controlling and dispersing such a crowd, one would have expected many people to have suffered injuries, but that did not happen. So -- I mean, the law is above everybody. Everybody has to respect the law. Nobody is above the law, so whether you are members of the Parliament or not – you of course have immunity inside the Parliament, but outside on the roads, you are like any other citizen -- if you break the law, you will have to answer for that.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. The State of Emergency which was implemented is in force. The Special Envoy to Sri Lanka and India had told us that it would be reviewed and lifted at the earliest.

President:

Yes.

Mr. Sambandan:

Have you taken any decision on that?

President:

I have not taken any decision yet, but it is being reviewed. I’m reviewing it continuously and I have a Ministerial Committee overseeing the present situation and they meet almost everyday and they will recommend to me when they see it fit for the State of Emergency to be lifted. I do hope that it would not take too long for us to lift it.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, in your path to reform, another challenge for you is to build institutions. The Maldives as we understand is centred around a strong executive, with judiciary and other institutions yet to be built up.

President:

No, we do have them.

Mr. Sambandan:

Yeah, you do have them, but strengthening them…

President:

I must tell you that there is already a separation of powers between the executive and the judiciary. The executive does not intervene and cannot intervene with the administration of justice here. Although the judges are appointed by the Government, still they are completely and entirely independent of the Government in deciding the cases that are put forward to courts. So, there is even now that distinction. And, Parliament is also an independent body. These institutions have been there for quite some time and are being strengthened continuously. Now, I believe that if the reforms that I am proposing to the Constitution are approved by the People’s Special Majlis and come into force, there will be greater separation of powers and these institutions will become stronger.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. One criticism of the entire system now is that everything is with the President. For instance, the Parliament is with the President; the judiciary is with the President. The President – your critics say – is all powerful, and the separation of powers does not translate to much under the present system. Would you like to comment on that, Mr. President?

President:

I think it’s an entirely wrong conception of what is actually happening. Parliament is quite independent, in the sense that there are certain proposals that I have made in the past to the Parliament which have been rejected.

Mr. Sambandan:

OK.

President:

Yes. And, although we don’t have a party system, it does not mean that the Government has its way, because every Member of Parliament is quite independent. He can either speak or vote whichever way he wants to. That has happened in the past. So the Parliament is independent and as I said, Members of Parliament enjoy full immunity. No Member of Parliament can be questioned or made answerable to any opinion that he expresses in Parliament or for the way he votes.

Mr. Sambandan:

The Special Majlis had a difficulty with secret ballot, and the view is that the secret ballot would have come up a different opinion, and that was why it was not allowed.

President:

It isn’t the case of it not being allowed, because, you know, our Constitution does not specifically say that the President of the People’s Special Majlis has to be elected by a secret ballot, and our tradition so far has been that the President of the People’s Special Majlis is elected by a show of hands. So, that’s what the Temporary President of the Special Majlis wanted to do, but there were some objections from some of Members. And, in the end, those people who objected staged a walkout for the first time in the history of this country. They came here and I met them and listened to their views. And then, of course the sitting had to be adjourned, because the Speaker himself did not want to make a decision in the absence of those 23 members out of 108. Although they are a minority, they were quite a sizable one. So, he said he would like to reconvene the first sitting with the presence of the 23 members, and he had actually scheduled it for the 16^th August before this thing happened. So, we are left with no alternative but to conclude that the mob violence was staged to derail the reform agenda that I had proposed.

Mr. Sambandan:

If you are moving away and introducing more reform, why do you think your dissidents want to derail that very process?

President:

There are several groups you know here, not one group. There is a religious fundamentalist group who don’t want to see for instance a woman becoming a President. I mean, one of the proposals that I am making is removing the gender bar on the presidency, which means that a woman can be elected in future to become a President. But, these people don’t want that. In fact those people want all women to be kept in their houses; arguing that no woman should hold a job. You know, it’s like in Afghanistan and some other very extremist places. They are against my proposals, that particular set of people. And, maybe there could be others who had their own political agenda, who see this as some sort of a barrier towards achieving their personal goals. And, a third group was a group of criminals. You know, people who had criminal records, people who had been in prison and who had been pardoned, or people who were serving sentences but who had freed themselves and just came out. So these were the different elements which had gathered.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, you have been the leader for 26 years now. Do you think that you have been for a long time and that its time you want to call it a day after putting in some reforms?

President:

Well, I know 25 years is a long time for any one man to be President, and that’s why I am now proposing that a President should serve for a maximum of 10 years; two terms of five years. I think I have been here at a time when the country needed somebody to take hold of the country and to push it forward. When I became President, there were only four Government schools; three in Male’ and one in the Atolls, but there are now schools in all the Atolls. The student population has increased from 15,000 to over a 100,000. And you know, those days we didn’t have many graduates in the country. When I wanted to form a Government, I was hard put to find qualified people. But now we have over 30 PhDs, over 300 who hold Masters degrees, and almost three thousand graduates – two thousand seven hundred something. So, the country has seen substantial change in all walks of life; in education, in services, in infrastructure building, in the way people think, in our interaction with the outside world. We have seen a big transition, so I think I must feel somewhat happy that this has taken place during my time as President. And, even according to our present Constitution, if the people don’t like the President, of course they have their say. As a presidential election takes place every five years, and if people are not happy with how the President runs the country, they can just say so, in the secret ballot. They haven’t done that.

Mr. Sambandan:

What is your view on a philosophical note on the much-debated trade-off between democracy and development? What is your view on that? Do you think these are at cross purpose with each other?

President:

I think they would help each other. They are not at cross purposes, because democracy would lead to further progress and prosperity, and also because development leads to greater democracy. That’s what is happening here, because, as you know, in 1978, we were a very poor country. We are still a poor country but we have developed very fast. That’s why we are being graduated from the UN’s list of least-developed countries. You know, our per capita income in 1978 was less than 300 dollars. Now it is over 2,200. And, even if you look at the health sector, our infant mortality rate in 1978 was 120; now its 14. Under-5 mortality was 180; it’s now 18. Our literacy rate has gone up to 99%. Thus, there are so many things that have been achieved here during the past 25 years, which I think, have paved the way for further liberal democracy to be introduced here.

Mr. Sambandan:

How do you see the transition path to liberal democracy? Is it going to be difficult? Are there going to be hurdles which will delay the onset of multiparty system for instance?

President:

No. I don’t think there is going to be any hurdles, but one thing we must do is make a legal framework for that, because parties can function only under an appropriate legal framework-- that we have to develop. That’s why we are seeking the help of NDI.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. If I may also refer to – how the Maldives is formally referred to – is that the President rules it with a tight fist …various labels; tight fist and strong man. How do you react to such labels?

President:

I don’t think these labels tell you the truth, because it so happens in the media that one person might write an article and others will follow suit. Somebody must have written that I rule the country with an iron fist and then every other person who reads that will pick it up again, but you can ask people around here. I am not such a person and we have these institutions, and I rule through these institutions. We have regular Cabinet meetings and everything is discussed there and this is actually a collective leadership. Whether you believe it or not, this is a collective leadership. We take collective decisions in the Cabinet and it is these decisions that are being carried out.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, you had referred to Islamic religious fundamentalism. How serious is that threat, Mr. President, especially because the Maldives has had a very rich history of being more than moderate – a liberal – religious outlook. You think they have the critical mass to change the Maldives?

President:

No. They don’t have critical mass, but I think this is a potential threat that we have to be very careful about, because extremism could infiltrate into the country, you know, gradually, and then all of a sudden you are faced with a situation where you see that there are a lot of these people around; and then they become violent. So, before that happens you have to nip it in the bud; you have to control the situation.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. Another social phenomenon is that also – there is richness but there is also inequality. There is a diverse range of inequality in the Maldives.

President:

Everywhere in the world; not only here. But, I think if you travel to the islands you will find a lot of difference between what things were like those days and now.

Mr. Sambandan:

Yes.

President:

Now we have schools in all the islands. We have either regional hospitals or health centres in all the islands, and you will find most of the people very well nourished and in good health. There is a lot of difference, between say 25 years ago and between now. So, the prosperity is not confined to Male’. You find it all over the country.

Mr. Sambandan:

The Hulhumale’ project is another thing which is likely to ease a lot of pressure out. You have similar other such projects or other things in mind?

President:

We are already implementing other programmes like shifting people from islands to other islands. We are building houses and giving them free of charge to people, in many islands which are threatened either by sea level rise or by other ecological hazards and so forth, or because the islands are so small that the people want to move. We are doing that throughout the atolls. Hulhumale is a very substantial and important project, because it will not only ease the congestion in Male’, but it will provide us much-needed land for other uses as well; for, say industrial use and for things like that. So, it is a very important project and if this becomes successful we can copy that in other areas of the country.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. In your terms as President, what are the special moments you remember? You came with a lot of promise and you delivered them on the economic front. So, what are the moments you remember? What do you think is the defining moment in the presidency?

President:

Well, there are many defining moments, but I must tell you, when I first became President I was faced with a situation of food shortage in the country. We had only three weeks of provisions. You know that our staple food is rice. We don’t grow it here. Rice has to be imported. Flour has to be imported. Sugar has to be imported. Edible oil has to be imported. So, for these things I found that we had only three weeks’ provision, and there was no money. So, I had to ask the help of neighbouring countries. Sri Lanka provided 2000 tonnes of rice. It was the first three weeks. That was the situation I took over as President. And, again I had faced many other things including the 1980 attempted coup by some foreign mercenaries. That was a very bad affair but we were able to control that. Later, in 1988, we had the PLOTE people who came and attacked Male’. At that time, we were taken quite by surprise. I was woken up by the noise of gun fire. We had to ask for Indian help. I had in fact contacted Rajiv Gandhi by phone and he very kindly supported us.

Mr. Sambandan:

Do you remember that conversation?

President:

Yes. Of course I do.

Mr. Sambandan:

How did it go on?

President:

Well, we had a very long call. In fact, we had a 14-hour telephone call. We didn’t terminate the call from this end because if you break the line, you never knew, you might not get a connection again. So, we had to keep it going for about 14 hours. I wasn’t talking all the time and he wasn’t talking, but every now and then we used to talk to each other. He was very good. He sent troops which came at night at 9 o’clock. And even before that, when the terrorists who came here and attacked Male’ learnt that the Indians were on their way, they tried to escape. But they were caught on the high seas and we brought them back and tried them. In the end of course after few years we sent them back. We did not execute or give death penalty to anybody. These are very critical moments in my presidency.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. Your transformation on the economic front; how confident are you that you can duplicate it on the political front as well?

President:

I think we can do it very well, because I have received almost universal support to my proposals from our people here and as well from abroad. A lot of people have written to me, saying that they welcome these proposals, so there is I think a lot of public support for it, which will be a great thing for the Majlis when they meet.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President. How do you look at the path ahead for the Maldives from here? Where do you think the entire thing is going towards, because since your last election, there have been popular calls for change? Popular dissent if one may say so is out on the streets. There is a kind of feeling that things have to change, but they don’t know how its going to change. So, what is your view of things now?

President:

Change is something that is necessary. It’s not only now -- I have been changing since I came to power 25 years ago. Nothing has stood still. I have been instituting change, and we need more change; that I agree. And, I am making more changes. As you have seen, I made some changes to the Cabinet yesterday and in the coming days and weeks I will make more changes. And, I think the dissidents are very few; that vocal dissidents are very few. There are five people – about five Maldivians. Three of them are fugitives from justice. I can name them, because they have been – you know two of them were imprisoned and they had applied to be allowed to go abroad for medical treatment, which we did on Government expense. One was sent to Bangkok; and he fled. The other one was sent to Colombo; and he also fled. You know these are fugitives from justice. The other person is one who knew that he was going to be questioned about the riots of 20^th of September – I mean Mohamed Latheef . His daughter was caught red-handed in the act of taking part in the riots and he knew that he himself would be taken in for questioning. So he fled the country. These are the vocal people abroad who are fugitives from justice. And there are two other people who are although not actually fugitives, are people who hold personal grudges against the Government. So these are the people who are very vocal abroad. They have their own websites. They speak to Governments and parliamentarians and try to cause a lot of difficulties for us, but these are very few people. The majority of the people know that the Government is serving them well. So, they are very supportive.

Mr. Sambandan:

The international view is that even those who are held do not have access to lawyers. They don’t have legal support. They don’t have any body to represent them.

President:

In this particular case, because in a State of Emergency the President has power to suspend certain rights that are there in the Constitution. I had to do this in the interest of the investigation being carried forward quickly. But, that is in this particular case, but otherwise all other detainees have access to legal counsel during the phase of investigation as well as at trial. But, as soon as the Emergency is lifted, these people will also have access to legal counsel.

Mr. Sambandan:

So, they will not be denied access?

President:

No they will not be denied access.

Mr. Sambandan:

Mr. President, one final question on the international affairs front. How do you see international relations with the Maldives, particularly with India?

President:

I think our relations with India are on an excellent basis. We have had very good relations over the past 25-26 years. I have repeatedly visited India and met Indian leaders and they have also done so. And, I plan to visit India in the near future to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and of course our friend Mrs. Sonia Gandhi, who has been very good to us. She had visited here with Rajiv Gandhi and we have visited them. I think relations are on an excellent basis, and we do have Indian cooperation in many things. We have the IGMH – the Indian Government donation to the Maldives. India is also involved in many of our other projects, and many of our students are receiving their education in India. We have Indian specialists in various fields in the country. We have good people-to-people contact. Over 15,000 Indians are employed here – gainfully employed here; and we have thousands of Maldivians who visit India for various reasons, for education, for medial purposes or for trade. So, I think our relations with India are on a very firm and strong basis.

I wish you well and I wish India all prosperity and progress.

Mr. Sambandan:

Thank you very much, Mr. President.